Beyond Your Limits with Dr. Christine Jehu

133. BIG ANNOUNCEMENT: the wait is up!!

• Dr. Christine Jehu

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I'm so excited to let the word out!! Ahhh this project has come together seamlessly and I am so pumped to bring you in behind the scenes of what Meghan and I have been cooking up in 2024!

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Speaker 1:

What does it look like to live a life beyond your limits? Hi, I'm Dr CJ, a copy obsessed psychologist coach and your personal virtual mentor. Too many of us are holding ourselves back, placing limits on what's possible and believing the false stories in our head that say we can't accomplish a goal or a dream. Together, we will rewrite the stories holding us back, tackle barriers and limits and build an incredible foundation for going after our goals and dreams. I'm here to support you, to challenge you and to coach you through and beyond your limits. And a quick caveat while I am a psychologist, this show is not therapy or a substitute for mental health treatment. Please connect with a licensed mental health provider for those needs. Alright, are you ready to live a life beyond your limits? Let's get after it. Hey, hey, friends, dr CJ, here we are back for another exciting, ah Episode of Beyond your Limits. I have been telling you all that there is a big project going on behind the scenes. I've been teasing you on social media. The wait is over. The wait is over. I am here to announce that I am officially writing a book. That's right, I am writing a book. We are writing a book on the zero fucks given method. So if you've been here for a while, you've probably heard me talk about it. I've shared about it on other people's podcasts, and now we are we, I am taking action, making this a real thing. Oh my gosh, I'm smiling from ear to ear right now because I just absolutely cannot believe that this is happening. I can't believe this is happening, and I never in a million years thought I would be so excited to write a book, so excited. So today's episode is really special.

Speaker 1:

You know our favorite journaling, ninja Megan. She has a publishing company, she's a writing coach and she is a dear, dear friend of mine, and so I reached out to her around Christmas and was like, hey, I'm ready to write a book. I don't freaking know what I'm going to write about. I'm terrified of this process. I could really use some accountability and I could really use some coaching. What do you think? It was a much more detailed message than that, and let me tell you, I was like pooping my pants, terrified, to ask her this, because it was making it real. Making it real, putting it out into the universe, like I want to write a book, I want accountability and I know, with her accountability, I cannot hide from it.

Speaker 1:

And so for the entire month of January, we have been meeting on Zoom every Tuesday night and we have an hour that we write together. She's working on her project, I'm working on mine, and then every month at the end of the month, we are going to jump on a Zoom call and record a podcast episode for you to share the process, because we want to pull the curtain back and let you all know what this writing process is all about, because there are so many of you out there who have a book in you, who have a story to share, who have something to teach us, to add to this world, and we want to show you what it's all about and show you how awesome Megan is, so that you can work with her and get your book and your story out into the world. And so that's what we're going to do for the foreseeable future, until we get to the point of launching this book, and then maybe after because I'm sure there's going to be that post book launch stuff to work through and to talk about and to process. So this is the first of many conversations that Megan and I have recorded. This one's a little bit longer because we wanted to share more about how this came to be and we get on this roller coaster of what the whole writing process is about and, oh, it's just so much fun.

Speaker 1:

So I hope you are excited. We're getting a book. Friends, we are getting a book, it's coming. I'm going to take you along along the journey and you're going to know all of the ins and outs and when it's coming and how you can get your hands on it and all that good stuff. And we have a lot of fun things that are like. We're just thinking about all of the cool things that we can do to support you and this community so that you can fucking live your best life and a life beyond your limits, because that's what we're here to do. Okay, I'm going to shut up now so you could get to this conversation with me and my dear, dear dear friend, the author, the publisher, the journaling ninja, my friend Megan. Okay, we're doing this thing.

Speaker 1:

We have been teasing us, or I have been teasing this like, oh my gosh, we've got this project and now it is time to let the world know what on earth we're doing.

Speaker 2:

It is right, I love it, I absolutely love it. Do you want to say?

Speaker 1:

it. Yeah, I messaged Megan with this half baked idea, a voice memo, and I was like pooping my pants while I was saying it and was like, hey, I know I've told you this every year since I've known you, but I'm actually ready to write a book and figure this shit out and come together, have some accountability. I'm selfishly asking you to coach me through the process. What do you think? Yada, yada, yada. And then I said okay, bye. I think my heart was racing a million miles per hour and I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, is she going to think of a lunatic? What are we going to do? But here we are.

Speaker 2:

Here we are. Definitely don't think you're a lunatic. I absolutely love this and I'm just excited for the opportunity to coach just such like a dear friend through this process, because it is such a process. Can we just acknowledge that writing a book is a whole ass process, no matter if you are a new writer, if you are a particularly kind of seasoned writer, whether you write for the sciences, if you've written a dissertation or whatever, or if you're just an experienced author, writing a book is always a whole ass process and I am just so proud of you and just excited to be a part of it.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, thank you, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

It's such a process and I was thinking it's like a whole different identity and like I imagine that identity keeps like ebbing and flowing as the process goes, as you become a seasoned writer and you know. So it's this whole new area and, like you said, I've written oh my gosh, who even knows how many pages of academic related stuff throughout my life, and we can get into this a little bit more. But like I think that was the piece that was scaring me because I never wanted to be an academic writer. You know that was never my goal, but that was like the only way that I knew how to write.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely for sure. And then the feedback you get on that academic writing, let's be real, if you've ever gone to grad school.

Speaker 2:

It doesn't matter what grad school program you went to. If you've been in the realm of grad school, that is that that can be a very vicious, judgmental, critical space when it comes to getting feedback on your writing. Like it's, it's to the point, depending on who you get where it's like you put the calm on the wrong place. How dare you? You should question everything and it can just be vicious and it can destroy your confidence. So depending I mean even if you didn't go to grad school depending on what, like who, you got feedback on or who gave an opinion on your writing in an official or unofficial capacity, can really mess, mess things up yeah absolutely Get in your head and get in your way.

Speaker 2:

So you know, I knew that that was like. That was like a big thing for you as well, right With just like the, that feedback portion and having that academic writing kind of background.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. Like. I had a professor in during my PhD program who literally wrote on a piece of my writing after I told her that like something pretty traumatic had happened in my personal life and I kind of wanted an extension on this paper. That she never acknowledged like the tragedy that happened and never said, yeah, that'd be cool. Like, yes, here's, here's the amount of time you could have like guiding me on what was realistic. She literally ignored my email and then I turned in the writing because I was like eff it, let's get it done. And then she wrote on the freaking paper like I'm only reading this for content. I don't think you're ready to write a dissertation.

Speaker 1:

And this was my second year of a PhD program and I had written an honor thesis and undergrad. I had been writing, you know like, and no one had ever given me any type of feedback like that ever. And then my chair never even addressed it and you know they were all having conversations and so I'm like what is this Like? Does my writing actually suck? Does this woman have a vendetta out against me? Like? Is she just like? I don't know one of those people who's like I'm going to be hard on you because I see your potential, you know, like it. Just there was no context behind it and I was like, well, look like, what am I, what am I even doing here? You know, like my goodness it was. And then, on top of that, dealing with this, like trauma that was unfolding in my personal life, you know, like good grief.

Speaker 2:

So for like, seriously though I mean we could totally record a whole other podcast episode on writing, trauma and feedback on your writing and navigating. That you know, it's just like, yeah, all of it is just is just so, is just so awful. And the only like. The other thing I want to like talk about before before we talk more about your book is just like that idea that that expectation for a writer to be perfect not only in their execution of you know how they articulate the information, but also in your ideas. Right, any good, you know, writing pedagogy acknowledges the process and I think a lot of times people get a hold of someone's piece of writing and they judge it by the standards of perfection or they had these unrealistic expectations and it's like dude, this is a draft like, come on you know, especially if you were that baby of a PhD, you know.

Speaker 2:

It's like no, no, no, no, no, you're still building the skills you know. So it's like I think we need so much grace and compassion as we start writing anything you know. But it's also just kind of like let's acknowledge the process. It's not going to be great the first, second, third time, like we just we it needs, it needs a chance to unfold and get better.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and with that like background and experience in academia and now having those fun three letters after my name of PhD, there's there, like you said, this expectation of perfection, and I think that's a lot of what was holding me back to is I don't I'm not that classic academic or I'm not doing research, I'm not doing those things.

Speaker 1:

Like I want to put my words out into the world and you don't see that like we don't in in the field of psychology and even you know, like academia broadly, we write for other professionals, we don't write for the public, and I think that's a huge miss, right, especially in the field of psychology, and when there's so much like misinformation out there about mental health and all of that, like there aren't models for me of how to be a psychologist who writes for or I mean, I'm sure there are, but not as many, right?

Speaker 1:

So then we have all of these quote unquote thought leaders who are out there giving you all this self-help advice when, like, their experience is 100% helpful but it's not grounded in any science or clinical practice or anything like that. So it's, yeah, I'm like so excited that I've gotten over like okay, let's not say I've gotten over all of the fears, because I'm sure there's going to be so many more poop your pants moments when we actually like go to oh yes, but yeah, I don't know it's. I'm excited and I'm like here for it as of right now we are fully on the roller coaster.

Speaker 2:

Yes, we are seriously in a chair. Yes, it truly is a roller coaster. There are parts and again it is a process like. I can't stress that enough, not just like to you as my friend, but also just like to people listening to this writing is a process. It is a whole ass process and that should be a sticker and a coffee mug.

Speaker 1:

Yes, Because there are moments right, we should.

Speaker 2:

seriously. There are moments that you're like, yeah, hands in the air, like life is awesome. And then there are other parts where you are grinning your teeth and you are clinging to that bar in front of you and you're like you're regretting every single decision that led you to this moment, right, and you're like I should quit.

Speaker 1:

on the upside down, and you're just hanging in your life.

Speaker 2:

Yes, all of it. It truly is the full, broad spectrum of experiences and emotions and you just have to buckle up for all of it. So I am so excited to just have these conversations with you and just to like, just be honest about the writing process because, yes, you can share about the writing process and pull the curtain back behind the scenes on Instagram with a post or whatever, but like this, you and I doing this, having these writing, podcasting conversations, is a whole new ground that I've never seen before.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

We're literally we're starting from the beginning and we're going to take it through the whole full process and it's just going to be so fun to really really pull back the curtain like that and to see what's what for people. So I'm just so jazzed. Well, and that's right.

Speaker 1:

That's why I wanted to do this, because I think in my message to you, I was like I haven't done this because I haven't seen it done. You know, like writers don't put the behind the scenes out there and the gross parts and the upside down parts on the roller coaster, and part of why I haven't stepped into writing a book is I haven't seen it done and I don't know, like, what to expect in the process. And, like you said before, we see the final product and we don't necessarily know like, oh, this person started this draft or this idea started baking three years ago. You know, and that Lord, please help, this is not going to take us three years. But yeah, no, no, no, no, no. We will not be on on this mic for three years talking about this one process.

Speaker 1:

But you know, like I think in the traditional publishing world right, and they have all these different deadlines and the big mammoth of the thing that it is. But, yeah, so I really I'm like stepping into this place to be vulnerable with everyone, but because I want, you know, you and I talk about it all the time like everyone has a story in them. I believe that stories change lives and if, if we can do a bit to help somebody else see themselves in this process and help them get out of their own damn way and come along this ride like, oh my gosh, imagine how many beautiful stories we will help get out into the world. And I know, like, like one it's. It's selfish because I'm like coach me through this process. But then it's also like I want to instill that hope in other people and like, just because I have a PhD behind my name doesn't mean that it automatically makes me qualified to do this and I'm learning and growing new skills in this whole, this whole adventure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, it's so funny because, like I just I love that like we approach this from like just two different like points of view, where you're like, oh my God, selfishly, coach me through the process, blah, blah, blah, but like you're saying this to a projector and if you know, anything about human design.

Speaker 2:

We got to wait for that invitation, right, and you know me, right, and you know my publishing business, you know the whole ordeal and I'm still kind of like like, yes, we have, at this point, four books out.

Speaker 2:

My publishing company has four books out into the world. You know you can find them all on Amazon. But you know, like I'm still very like newborn, like calf, wobbling around trying to figure it out. You know, and you know what one of the things that I think makes my publishing business like unique is the fact that I want to offer resources to writers, because there's so many women like you where you're like, oh my gosh, I want to do this but I need support. Right, and you know, so you're giving me the opportunity like you extended the invitation to me that I accepted to be able to explore this side and to get messy and sort of figure it out. You know, so I can provide, you know, other kinds of resources to two women. So you really are my amazing guinea pig at the same time, I'm happy to step in the role.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's right. So this is just awesome in so many different ways. So, yeah, I'm just excited. So we kind of have talked a little bit about your journey into writing a book, but you just want to just like talk a little bit more about that, like, what has this journey fully been like to getting to where you are?

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah. So part of what has helped in this process is I think it was the first time that we got on our accountability call where. So we have for those listening. We have a weekly time where we get on zoom and we say, hi, what are you working on? And then we go on mute and we crank it out for an hour or longer. You know, whatever we're able to do that night and I told you like I don't really know what I'm going to write about, so I'm going to write about wanting to write.

Speaker 1:

And so in some of that process, I recognize that, since I was, for as long as I can remember, if anybody asked me like what's a, what's a big dream or goal for your life, the first thing that would like hit my gut is I want to write a book. And I honestly don't know where that came from. Well, actually I'll tell you I did discover it, but like I never was much of a reader when I was a kid, I kind of had to be forced to read. And now you can see I've got like a massive book case behind me and you know, folks have probably seen it on Instagram or if you've been on zoom with me ever. There's a color coded bookshelf behind me and I now devour books. And so when I would say, like I want to, I want to write a book, I also didn't know what do I want to write Like? Do I want to teach people things? Do I want to share my story? Like I just honestly, I had no frigging clue what this was going to be. And so when I was writing I was like where did this come from? And okay, I'm an 80s baby and like 80s, like late 80s, early 90s, probably early 90s, there was a show on Nickelodeon called Doug and Doug. Doug, doug, doug, funny. Is this character who it's so funny? I went back and like watched some of the first episodes.

Speaker 1:

Once I realized this to be like is my memory kids, you know like it's really what happened and Doug's. The narration of this show is Doug writing to his journal and there was something about that that it always stuck with me. It stuck, stuck. It always stuck with me, stuck. It's early folks, and it was like I like that, like this idea of just sort of narrating life.

Speaker 1:

And then, as we move forward, I'm a clinical psychologist and my theory of practice is narrative psychology and so this idea of stories and how we come to understanding through our experiences and through story and through storytelling.

Speaker 1:

And then how can we rewrite our narratives through the knowledge that we have, not that we're like going to go tell a false story, but like writing the narrative of understanding that serves us. And so it's all like starting to make sense of OK, like writing as a guide and writing to share process, rather than that academic focus of here is an idea and here is a hypothesis and you need to go argue it and you need to test it and that's need to tell us what you found and blog and like that is not what I want to do, like boring, I mean, like I love science, science is sexy, and like it's all great, but that's not what I want to do. I joke to people that I made it through grad school doing the least possible research of all time. So I'm like that's so funny. I got one public pub on my CV and I'm like the 1,200th author. That's dramatic. I'm like the eighth author.

Speaker 2:

But for real though, like you're the at all in that article when people cite it, you're the at all, I'm the at all.

Speaker 1:

Now my CV is full of presentations right, because that's getting up and sharing and engaging. And I think part of what has really helped me in finding my voice and finding that thread in the story and like who I am has been podcasting, yeah, which is like so cool, because there have been a couple of podcast episodes, one in particular that you were you voice memored me A while ago. I was like yo, this is like an introduction to a book and I was like, oh, my god, stop. And so I took that and I put it in like a translator thing, like a, like a AI DLIO, and got the transcript and started I think I did that last year started piecing it apart.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, that that part has been really good and like, honestly, listening back to podcasts where I've been interviewed on, or even my own episodes a while after they've been done, and being like, yo, girl, you actually have something to say, and gaining confidence in that way. And so it's been this dance and I even have this notebook. I probably even text you about this. It had to have been over a year ago where I was like, hey, I bought this one notebook and this notebook is going to be where I put all my ideas for writing, and I'm just going to start collecting these ideas, because one time you told me to start collecting ideas. This notebook sat empty until the start of 2024.

Speaker 2:

After I had messaged you.

Speaker 1:

And I think even after our first like conversation, when we were like, ok, how are we going to approach this? What are we actually going to do? And so you know part of this, like if we think about this roller coaster idea, right, if you can think about, if you're a little kid and the first time you go to an amusement park and you know, oh my gosh, I'm going and you've heard about this concept of a roller coaster and you're a little bit of a thrill seeker, but you're also like, oh my god, what is this going to be about? And and there's this anticipation, I don't know. Maybe you watch YouTube videos about these roller coasters we didn't have those in the 90s, but you know, it's these days, probably, do that and it's like you have to approach and then step back and approach and then step back and then finally you jump on your first roller coaster and it's like, ok, ok, this is what this is about.

Speaker 1:

And then you can graduate up and up and up and Soon, hopefully we're going to be shot out of that one that goes zero to 60 and point five seconds.

Speaker 2:

Yes, oh, I just love all that and that is so, so true. I just I think that that larger metaphor of a roller coaster is just so applicable to just everything, but also specifically for writing, because you stare at the roller coaster in the distance and you're like I want that, but you're like from far away it doesn't look that big.

Speaker 2:

And it doesn't look that big and you're like yeah, I can do that, like that is bad ass, like we're going to do that. And then you get closer and you're like, wow, that's really tall, that's really big. And then you like see the line and you're like, ok, and then you, you go through that full cycle of like I want to do this. Oh my gosh, what if I can't? Like, oh, this is like really bad, like maybe no, no, I can't. No, I can do it.

Speaker 1:

And then you see the people walking off. Some of them are running to a trash can, others are like yes, great.

Speaker 2:

Then you got people crying, like you know yes, you just don't know what it's going to be like and there's there's no way to plan for it. Right, like you, literally like you just have to surrender and give yourself over to the full experience. You know, I don't know a single writer who has gone through any kind of project of any length and hasn't had the excitement, the breakdown, the breakthrough and just the, the feeling proud as hell at the end. I don't know anybody who hasn't gone through that full spectrum. And I remember in college I was working on and it was. It was not like a like a senior thesis or anything like that, but it was an independent study with my Shakespeare professor. And I said to a different professor who was actually my advisor I was like, because I had to write this like 25 page Shakespeare paper and I was saying to, to, to Mike, his name was Mike, he just he went by Mike. I was like Mike, oh my God, like I'm just like breaking out right now. I was like I thought I had it together, I thought I had everything great and I was like, and it just freaking fell apart. Like is there's? Like, do I not have what it takes? Like, do I suck? And he was like if your shit didn't fall apart. He's like I would be surprised and then I would think there's something wrong with you. Oh, wow. And that has stuck with me ever, ever since he said that.

Speaker 2:

Because there is there is the initial excitement, there is, and as you're figuring things out, you think you have it figured out and then you don't. And there's that break. And that's where a lot of people take the exit ramp off and they're like I don't have what it takes, right, but you actually do, you just need to break down. And then you know, on the other side of that, you just sit in the shit, right, like that's like my new motto coming off of 2023. That's a whole other conversation. But like you do, you have to let yourself sit in the shit to figure it out, to get to the other side, right, and then you can just like keep, keep going, and there might be other like breakdowns, but there's always that like breakdown component to get to the other, to get to the other side, and I have completely lost track of what we were talking about before this, that's OK.

Speaker 2:

I felt like so Well compelled to share all of that right there, but but yeah, it's just. It's just you. You have the whole broad spectrum of of emotions and experiences when you, when you write. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm glad that we have this recorded, because who knows how long it's going to take for us to be over here and have me breaking down and maybe shed some tears and be like I don't want to do this at a bar.

Speaker 2:

Yes, go back and listen to episode one of this For real and it's something I have to tell myself like on the daily all the time, you know, especially when it comes to any big project, like it just is that full experience, the other thing that you were saying, with your idea notebook and like all this thing, like I feel like part of your journey really has been like you've been. You've been writing a book for years. You've just been in the state like living in the land of idea exploration and that sort of like prewriting stage.

Speaker 2:

You know, and that's the thing about the writing process is that I want to flex on the writing process here for a second, because it's like it's so much fun, that's like my, my jam. I love the writing process, and so, you know, the writing process has four or five stages. You've got prewriting, you've got drafting, revising, proofreading and editing and then publishing, right? So the prewriting is where you literally like explore ideas. It's all about exploration, it's all about being open and abundant and judgment free. You know, and I feel like that's the place that you've been living in for a while, so you have been writing a book for a while. This has been, you know, a long time coming, but you're just like figuring out ideas. You're like, you know, thinking about whatever this idea is over here with that one podcast episode, and you're like, okay, that feels good, like, okay, we're going to go Explore some more over here, and then you just like keep wandering around in that exploration. And the best thing about the writing process is that everybody's process is different, right?

Speaker 2:

So I can't get on a call with anybody and say okay, you have two days to do the prewriting, you know, and now you have three months to draft it. Like that's not how it works.

Speaker 1:

And that's I think but that's how it is in college, right? Yes, that's why we think like there's a linear process.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, and that's one of the things like that I'm starting to like learn just being fully transparent and vulnerable is that when it comes to being in the writing coaching space, it's hard because I can give knowledge, I can give you know, because I have tons of knowledge to give right, tons of value to give, but I don't want to give it in a way that is so like systematic and rigid, because that's going to make people take the exit.

Speaker 2:

You know and I don't want that, and that's why this project with you and I is so awesome. Because it takes as long as it takes, you know, and I can be there, like you know, guiding you through the whole process. But it's not like again, it's not like you have two days to do whatever, like you have been in the prewriting process for years and that is okay, right? Yes, because you have to, like, explore the different ideas. You have to be so open and allow yourself to be like okay, what's possible? Right. And I think that's like one of the coolest things about you is that you're not trying to force an idea. You're not trying to be like, you know, head down this one particular path, like this has to be it or whatever, right. Or you're not like rushing where. You're like okay, I want to write a book, what is it going to be? I think it's going to be this Okay, let's go. And then you're buckled up and then you're just like, oh my God, I really actually don't care about this project, and then that might lead to like an exit ramp, and that's not a waste of time. That, too, is part of the writing process. So writing is such a complicated, crazy, crazy thing in that way. So I just love that you are telling people right now that you know, even if you're not at that like I am writing a book stage, where you're like, ah, your computer and you're typing in the, you know, on the keys, right Like you're still writing a book, you're just in the prewriting stage, where you are capturing ideas.

Speaker 2:

You're preserving them because when ideas come across your brain, you're either going to catch them, kind of like a firefly situation, put them in a char, you know, or you're going to let them go and then they're going to go away and you're not going to have it right. So I think it's so important, no matter what the idea is, even if it seems random and crazy, like if you feel that like little flicker of like, hey, that could be something, you've got to capture it. Even if you don't have that feeling of like, oh, whatever, that's a random idea, write it down, write it down. Write it down, because you're going to lose it and that's part of the magic of writing and the magic of creation is preservation. You do not want to lose those ideas.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think on this piece of the prewriting and how are you finding your ideas?

Speaker 1:

The, I would say like the most liberating conversation that you and I have had so far was when we first got on a call and you were like, okay, so I have this course and I could give you access to it and you could go through all of the learning and the knowledge and the this and the that.

Speaker 1:

And you were kind of telling me you know, understand what kind of writing you want to do and like research, different books and all of this. And then as we got to talking, we identified that for me, digging into that more like learning academic style was probably gonna hinder me. And so we were like you know, like just start putting words on paper. And I had told you I had this idea of let me just write like an essay a month and just start to explore and see what comes up. And that just felt so freeing to me again of not being locked into an idea and to just have the space to move around with whatever comes up. And I did that for one week. And then I messaged you and was like I know what the book's gonna be about.

Speaker 2:

But I think it's because of that freedom and giving yourself permission to be like I'm gonna be flowy, I'm not gonna have that rigid, suffocating. You know academic structure and I'm not saying all academic stuff is suffocating, but for you, like it is very, very suffocating. And to not be in this rigid structure and to just be, you know, I picture a meadow for you and there's lots of grass and flowers and trees and it's beautiful and there's a deer over there and a bunny and it's like it's just this great, like we're just gonna wander through this.

Speaker 2:

You know we're gonna frolic. This is gonna be fun and I think that you know I'm really getting into and like exploring this idea of like energetics and what you're putting out there in the universe. You know, and by getting in that, you know, by saying no to that rigid structure, you're telling the universe you're like a yes for inspiration, which could be way too woo woo for some people like listening. No, I'm learning.

Speaker 2:

I'm reading Super Attractor right now and you've read it a million times and it's like but seriously, though, like you just needed to get rid of that like structure and just like wander around, and that's when you were open for all this inspiration, like hey universe, like we're open, we're exploring whatever, that one idea took root, and that's where you're gonna start Book one of a many book long career, right?

Speaker 1:

And it's just so.

Speaker 2:

I just love that for you. I love that so much. I think that's so cool.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and the other like thing that you said to me that's really hit is you were like, if you write any like like you podcast, it's gonna be great, and cause. You were like you have these components boom, boom, boom. And I was like huh, so what? I've done is as I sit down and I know like, okay, this is the part that I'm writing today. It's flowing so almost effortlessly because I'm just pretending like I'm talking about this subject on the mic, but it's coming out of my fingers rather than my mouth.

Speaker 2:

Exactly right and I think, too, part of why it's flowing freely and again, this is a super attractor thing, but it's like I feel like the ideas are flowing because it's coming from that place of like love and not obligation Absolutely, and not this place of like. I have to write this paper about whatever, whatever. And then the body seizes up and your shoulders are like, and you're like okay, we're doing it, but that's not what you're doing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's like service. It's not about me, it's about this is a tool that I know can really have a profound impact on people's lives.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for sure. There's another writer. She wrote a book. Oh my gosh, the summer I was devouring her book and then I kind of got away from fiction a little bit. So I put it down but I need to finish it.

Speaker 2:

But her name is Megan March and yes, it's a fiction Like, it's like a manual of like how to write fiction. But she even talks about like part of the identity that she adopted to be the multimillion dollar earning fiction writer that she is, is to think of herself as a, as just a conduit for the story, like a conduit for the information, and that the information not even information, but like the story, the information, the intention is just like flowing, you know, flowing through her, and it's like she's getting that inspiration like from the universe. And it's like I am open to the story. It's so, so like spiritual and wooey, but like it's really cool, if you like, kind of let yourself think about like no, I'm the conduit for this, like information, like this is meant to be, like I'm excited. This is all coming from a place of love and not obligation and excitement, like putting yourself in that, like positive space. It's really cool.

Speaker 1:

That's the really cool side too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it does, it does. I don't know how you feel about any of that like.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, I'm obsessed with it. Like you said, I've read Super Horsetraktor like three or four times. I'm reading Big Magic right now Cause that was one of the things that you told me to do is like it's you know kind of study, the books that I really like. So I literally have a stack of books to my right and I a part of this notebook is it's book research, and so, as I've been, it's actually interesting because I've read Big Magic. This is probably the third or fourth time that I've read it and every time I I can remember very vividly reading through it, cause she's talking about that process of writing, right, and this idea of like letting the ideas come to you and like, are you in relationship with the idea and with creativity? And like, if you don't honor that relationship or you make it this like toxic love affair, then the idea is going to go away, and so, like, connect with it and I I just remember in previous times that I've read it I'm like, but where's the idea? You know, like, I just felt this, like I don't like. Cognitively, I understand what you're saying, but I don't feel that yet. And now I feel it because this book that I'm writing is something that I teach, but it's not like an academic stuffy. I mean, come on, it's a zero fucks given method. And so, like you don't have the academic stocking about that, and so it really is.

Speaker 1:

You know, it was like a number of people have asked me to talk about it on their podcast and I'm like cool, and to me it's always been okay. Well, this method is so straightforward. But then on the backside of it, when I tell like our coaches and stuff, here's what they get out of it. It's so complex, but it's like a psychological sneak attack. And so it's like all of these things that you get from this very simple method. And so I had the people have been telling me for years like write a book about this. And I'm like it's going to be two pages long because, boom, boom, the steps are simple.

Speaker 1:

But then as I've, as I've taught it more, and as I was on our friend JC's podcast and we unpacked it in a more like arc of a story way, and I was like, holy shit, like you just gave me this deeper outline in the way, like the way she carried this conversation, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is excellent.

Speaker 1:

So then somebody also had me come do a workshop with this group and I just got so lit up it was like eight o'clock at night and I'm like bouncing off the walls. I was like I'm going to have to go do a frickin' meditation to be able to go to sleep. But it just watching the light bulbs come on in people's head and the questions that they asked me and then the additional pieces that came out in that group, versus when I'm talking to college students who have to be there and listen to me talk, it just opened so many more doors for the ideas to come through. And that's why I think when I sit down to write I mean I told you these the last three times that we've sat down I've written about 2000 words each time and you're like oh my God, I have no frame of reference for that, but I'm just going and I'm having a great time and I'm like having a little conversation through my fingertips and I'm like but it was just. You know, it's fun.

Speaker 2:

It's fun. It should be fun, especially at the beginning, when there is nothing but unfurling and passive possibility in front of you. And I think again, I think so many more people have more writing trauma than they think of right, Because the writing is judged and it's graded and it's held to a rubric and a standard and there's expectation and there's not anything wrong with that. Like I'm a fricking high school teacher.

Speaker 1:

Like there's nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 2:

But it does sometimes occasionally like stifle that creativity or you get that one comment from someone Like I remember in seventh grade, like I was, I got a comment on a paper where it was a comparative analysis in the homex class when that was still a thing, and the whole act of the seventh grade.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, oh my God, yeah.

Speaker 2:

But it was called FACTS, facts, class FACTS, family and consumer science, whatever some bullshit, but like it was a comparative analysis of mac and cheese and it was numbers based the content was yeah, it was stupid, and there was this, we had to go. Yeah, it was like all the content. It was obviously about mac and cheese, but it was about like the numbers and like I struggle with numbers, and so it was like comparing the sodium and this mac and cheese to this other one and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1:

And so my paper was shit, it was absolute crap.

Speaker 2:

And the teacher handed it back to me and she was like yeah, you're not a very good writer, are you? And I was like excuse them, what, Like, what? Oh?

Speaker 1:

my gosh, not this type of writing, biatch.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, and I was like you know, and of course my little sad seventh grade self was just absolutely crushed. You know my mother was pissed for days, you know Cause I was, you know, didn't have a lot of self esteem at the time at all and it was like the little self esteem I had was just like squash. But my point is that you know, like that stuff affects us more than we actually realize, you know. I mean it's like those formative stages, my gosh.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like little tea, writing trauma, and I think that happens to so many people. The other thing I was thinking about as you were talking, where you were, where people have told you in the past where they're like, yeah, like write this book or whatever, and you're like it's going to be two pages. I think just kind of this is my just like assessment of it. Is it? Fear is getting in your way and blocking the possibility. You said no, but we even explored what that could look like.

Speaker 2:

Right, and I see that I was just talking to my husband about this, because I'm teaching a class right now where I'm trying to get the kids to narrow their topics and there is so much resistance and fear when you try to like narrow your topic or when you say, oh, I want to write about this, and you're like, but oh my God, I can't like. It's like that shoulder creeping up, anxiety of like, oh my God, but what am I going to fill the pages with? Like I don't have enough to say like, oh, like, it's this fear and I'm not trying to mock it, but it's that fear and that anxiety and that worry where you're cutting yourself off from exploration and innovation and inspiration before you even try.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, and some of it I think that that's a huge deterrent from even trying or starting. Where you're? Like shit man, I only have, like this, this one idea. Or like three chapters. I only have an idea for three chapters for a book, right, Like that's not enough. Who says Right.

Speaker 2:

Who says those three chapters could end up becoming 350 pages of information because you can dive deeper. So, like I just got on a like passionate tangent there, but like my point is, though, is that that happens too, and it kind of is leading us into something else I wanted to talk about is like blocks and obstacles, and just the different things that pop up to get you to take that early exit ramp off, this like intended path to write a book, and one of those things is the fear of like oh, it's not going to be enough, or what am I going to talk about? Like you get so not you, you, but like just the the, you know, general. You gets so worried about like oh, like what if it's? What if my idea is not sustainable? What if I don't have enough to say, like what if it? What if this, what if that? And it just cuts you off from going going forward before you've even given it a chance.

Speaker 2:

So you know, that's a very real problem. I don't mean it in like a judgey way, but like that's one of the biggest things that people. You just take the the exit ramp early, and I'm just so happy that you got in spaces and had conversations where it removed that block, where you're like oh, oh shit, like no, I can actually like there's more there, like the path didn't end, there was just a tree in the way. And now, like we're good, I'm going to walk over the tree and we're going to keep going, you know yeah.

Speaker 1:

And a lot of it was breaking down that framework that I had been trained in, honestly, because, you know, in academic writing you don't share personal stories and in you know, as a psychologist, you're not actually supposed to let the world know who you are. And so it's been this whole thing, too, of you know the changing landscape of social media and this creator's world and psychologists really being out there and sharing our lives and in a way of teaching and guiding. And so once I got to a place of oh wait, I have actually like in the therapeutic settings and in in when I teach this, I have been sharing here's what worked for me and here's how I've applied it, and so now, and so whatever happened, where I broke this open, and now it's like, oh, oh, this is the story. Let me just talk about that story and, honestly, some of it is healing, because there are things coming out that I'm putting words to differently, where I'm like, yeah, all right, yeah, here we are, yeah, you know, you said earlier too like being in spaces and being around people, like the truth of the matter is, for the last few years, I was in an unhappy marriage and that was blocking a lot of my just personhood, the amount that I am coming to recognize that I lost myself over the course of that relationship and I'm in this space of healing and being seen and being openly acknowledged and cared for and I'm now seeing it again.

Speaker 1:

It has just opened up so much where I'm like oh yeah, I do have this. Like my girlfriend is like you have at least four books in you and she's like you can write about this, you can write about this, you can write about this. And I'm like whoa, like you see me and that has, you know, just my every day and my environment has completely changed to allow me the space to let, because all of that prewriting has been done in the sacred space of my journals.

Speaker 1:

And now it's like here we go, we coming out again.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, for sure, for sure, for sure, yeah, definitely. Environment is a huge, huge part of it as well. Because, you know, I'm not saying that you shouldn't share ideas with everybody, but like you do kind of have to be a little bit guarded or prepared for people to take your idea and like laugh at you or to shoot it down and it'd be like like who are you? You know so and I'm not saying that you know that you should just like never share your ideas with anybody, but like it is so important to have your ideas nurtured, especially when they're in that fragile idea stage where you know people could easily just be like, wow, whatever. And then you know you're taking that exit ramp again, you know, and so I just think that's so amazing that you do have that environment that's fostered and kindled and just like nurtured, like, yeah, cj like you're a badass, Like this is awesome.

Speaker 2:

Like you know, you've got all this amazing things that you can do that you have to like offer. You know, environment is a huge, huge portion of it. I also think it's really cool, too, that our ideas and you've done this, where it's like your ideas were then fleshed out a little bit more by having different conversations with, like different people. You know, and that's one of the things that why we shouldn't keep our ideas to ourselves right, because you know, our brain can only get us so far with an idea before, like it needs to be shared with someone else, to be challenged in a positive way, or to be extended or thought about in a different way, because that's also what helps it grow. You know, like, yes, it's still kind of fragile, but it can also really help it grow when you talk to the right people in the right environment. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

This is so fun. This is so fun.

Speaker 2:

It is so fun, I'm having so much fun right now. I just love it. So, as you've been writing, have any other obstacles come up? We've talked a lot about fear and like judgment and stuff. Has anything else come up for you, as you've written?

Speaker 1:

You know, I think and this is the part where I'm pausing because I'm like we're pulling back the curtain and I don't want to be all like Pollyanna with this, but like, I think, the majority at this point, right at this point in the process the majority of the fears and the obstacles have been what got me, what has stopped me from writing, and so you know, so one of the things you don't know this yet, because I haven't showed you any of the work but I changed the font while I'm writing to like something that's like kind of fun and playful, sure, so it is a different visual experience for me than writing an academic paper, and so that is a part that's been really helpful, and I actually recently printed off what I have because I got to. So I'm part of okay. So I'm hacking my own obstacles that I know have come up historically. So I have, historically, when writing academic papers, have tried to edit while I'm writing, and so I would in grad school.

Speaker 1:

I would take off the like squiggly lines and whatever and just write. I also would write under the influence of wine. I've not been doing that. That's literally how I got into, how I got through grad school. I would get stuck.

Speaker 1:

I would pour a giant glass of wine and like just sit and write and be like and then I wouldn't read back on anything until the morning and then I was like, hey, this is actually good, so you were literally like freaking Ernest having what he did.

Speaker 2:

You'd be like right drunk man and it's sober like let's go. Oh my God, that's so funny.

Speaker 1:

And we are not advocating that, we're not advocating that I would be like wine goblet and I would like hold it in my hand and I would walk around my house and be like, come on ideas. And then I'm like, oh my God, oh, I'm not writing this one under the influence. Love that for you. However, I've said to myself, okay, I'm just going to write and I'm not going to if I start on the left and all of a sudden it comes to the right and then it pings back to the left like cool, and I'm just I'm following the flow. Like you said, I'm not going to stifle an idea, I'm just letting it. I'm just letting it come out.

Speaker 1:

And so that has been really helpful, and I haven't allowed myself to go back to read what I've written until we got like three sessions in, and at that point I was like things were coming and it's been really great, and I was thinking, okay, I know I've touched on like five or six different things, and so now's the time to print it out and see, like, okay, this idea came up and there's, like you said, more to write about it, and so make a couple of notes of like here are the things that I could pin down, and so it's actually been a fun like first sort of editing process and it's been.

Speaker 1:

I'm like some of this writing is pretty fucking good and having read it after being away from it for a handful of days and so like I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I think one of the challenges right now is that I just want to keep writing and I have had a full January to where I haven't had the block of time with the energy right to come back and keep putting words on paper, just because there's been a lot, you know, with work and life and travels and stuff, and so I'm excited to have more space to do more writing because the ideas just keep coming. Yeah, who am I?

Speaker 2:

Who are you? Oh, that's such a beautiful place to live in. I just love that so much. But like, I think too, though, like part of the process of writing a book. So my first book, like, was one of the most rewarding things I had ever written Guide to Journaling because it was co-created with, like my community. You know like it was. It literally exists in the world because women came to me with a problem that I solved through the book right, and that was so rewarding.

Speaker 2:

And the process of getting that book out was very, you know, tax thing for me because of the way that I was showing up to write. I was in this huge hustle, like hustle season. It was like we got to you know, grind on the daily type of thing, and it was like I got to show up every day to write. And the I got to show up to every day to write was not fueled by that sense of excitement that you feel right now, that sense of fun. It was fueled by fear and like a, like a, like a, I have to, I have to do this, like people are counting on me, type of thing. And that's nobody's like fault. It was just in the season I was in. It was a you know I'm not that person anymore, you know, but it was just.

Speaker 2:

It was fueled by something that was not sustainable and I, just I, I showed up to my computer like excited, but not in the full, the full experience of, of excitement that I wanted to be in, right, yeah, yeah. But the project I'm working on now, it is much more exciting because and so yeah, so, anyway, yeah, I'm we both work on books at the same time, but the book that I'm working on right now, like I am so excited about it also, is something that is semi-co-created with my community, because I know a ton of other women have also experienced burnout, like they're so passionate that they end up burning out, right, and so that's what the project is all about, but I am not writing on it every day. I'm not writing on it every day. I am doing two things with that. It's the the less is more mentality, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it's following the energy right.

Speaker 2:

And there's no force or control behind it. It's like that sort of super attractor type of like thing again, where it's like, you know, you have to exist in that like love flowy state and not to try to control, not to try to, like you know, let fear dictate your decisions, right, yeah, and so having our wonderful Tuesday evenings that have become this like sacred writing time is just so awesome because for me, right now in this like season of life, you know, as I'm recovering from burnout and trying to figure out how to take action again, especially when it comes to writing, is having having less, like less is more. There are fewer writing sessions. You know that I'm not fewer writing sessions, way fewer days that I write a week, which means that I value the, the. You know that one session, right. And then the other times, like you, where it's like okay, I'm feeling excited, I'm feeling, you know, inspired, like I want to write. Then you just like you follow that.

Speaker 2:

You know there's not this like again going back to this rigid, regimented type of thing. Like it's great for some people. You know Stephen King sits down every day and he bangs out 10,000 words. You know that works for him, but that doesn't work for me. You know I tried to do that and that led to burnout, that led to a lot of like other shit. That just was not fun, you know, and again. So now we're talking about drafting, right. So like that second stage of the writing process where you're actually making the book, you're making the product, and what that looks like is going to be different for every single person. Like that's, that's like the number one question authors are asked. They're like oh, we have people like what's your writing process? And then, like we feel like we have to subscribe or a subscribe to that exact process and it's like, uh-uh, that's not going to work for everybody.

Speaker 2:

You know it's going to look different, and so again, I've lost track of my point here. But I just, I just love especially when you're drafting, to stay in that you know you call it like a Pollyanna, like state of mind, but it's really like not, it's just like it's creating in the flow right.

Speaker 1:

It's creating with love, and fun, and positivity and just like good vibes.

Speaker 2:

Like that, I think, is how a book is meant to come into the world.

Speaker 1:

And I think we can feel it when we read it right, like when when you read somebody's finished product like you can really tell when it was forced and when it was like truly a gift to the reader.

Speaker 2:

Oh, for sure, For sure, and I want to say, too, that, like it's interesting. So now that I like think about it too is like the. The drafting stage of guide to journaling was way more fun, because it was where I was just like sit down, like in sweaty clothes after a walk, and you know I'd be like woo, like this is so fun. It was in the revising stage that I sucked out all of my own joy, and we can talk about that on a different episode, but I think the point I want any buddy, everybody, to walk away with, though, is be in that state of fun. Yeah, that like little kid running down a hill where like you know what I'm talking about, right, where your legs almost tumble out from beneath you, like you're just, like you know, just in it, right, that is the most beautiful thing, I think, when you are starting to. It is freeing, right, and you know it's just, it's just awesome.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's just so awesome. You're so funny. We had a technical issue, kind of glitched, and I couldn't hear what you said, but that's okay. I said I can't believe we're doing this. Oh, I know, right. Oh my God, I know this is so much fun. This is so much fun. I am just this is amazing. So, and I feel like you kind of the only other thing I had written down because you know and can we just talk about that for a hot second the flowiness of this fricking conversation and how I started off as a podcaster and where we are now like oh my God, this is awesome.

Speaker 1:

I know.

Speaker 2:

I know, oh my God, it's so awesome. But no, the only other thing I had written down was just like you know, hey, you are putting actual words onto the page Like how do you feel, how was it, how was it going? And you kind of answered that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, it just feels good. It feels good and I think I'm surprising myself in the best possible way and I think something. I don't remember what you were saying earlier, but it hit me again. I feel like I'm saying this cautiously right, because the idea that jumped out where I was like following the tugs and the nudges and just said, you know, surrendered to it Okay, this is the thing to write, it is. It is coming to me with a sense of ease because I've been teaching this for over five, six years.

Speaker 1:

It is a process that I created and I've been teaching it for a while, and so all of the information is in my head.

Speaker 1:

It's just a matter of getting it out and putting it on paper. And so part of what has been really cool is you and I have also gone back and forth of like, oh my gosh, when this releases, like, what are the book bundles? We could do what's. You know what additional pieces could be a part of this that helps serve the people who are going to read this book, and so those are pieces that are really exciting, and I think what is helping me sustain some momentum at the start is because I can see the finish line, and I'm also very, very, very, very mindful that book two likely is not going to look like this Right, and so I'm keeping that front of mind and processing the process for myself and managing my own expectations of what the next books will be like and feel like, while also saying, fuck yeah, let's go and get this out in the world, because there's just I'm just really excited about the impact that it can have for other people.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Right, absolutely. The process is going to look different for each book, you know, and that would be, that would be so fun for me to like, think even more in depth, like when I finished my second book, like to really compare the processes, because they are completely different, you know, and I'm a completely different person, like than I was when I wrote the first book. You know, and it's just, it's yeah, it's just, you know, it's just enjoy, enjoy, yeah, just enjoy, like where you are and how it's, how it's flowing and I think that's such an important thing to acknowledge because there might be somebody else who's listening in that's like, oh, like it's not flowing easy for me, like I'm a failure, exit, ramp you know so many things can trigger us.

Speaker 1:

You are not a failure.

Speaker 2:

So many things can trigger us to take that exit ramp and like and I'm not, yeah, but anyway, but no like it's true, though that is just like. That is just so true that some writing, writing projects come with so much more ease than others. You know, it's just, it's just a thing that happens, you know, and it's awesome when an entire book flows out like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, but yeah, I mean, I have dozens of projects going on right now and you know, one of them is a collection of creative essays, and some of those essays just flow, flow, flow. Other ones. I open the Word document and I scroll, you know, down and I see a title and I see some notes and I'm like we're not there yet.

Speaker 2:

Like that's going to be, that's going to be a hard one, you know, or whatever, like it's just different projects have different levels of ease and flow and whatever you know. And I think, regardless of how you're feeling like, it's kind of it's sort of an invitation to reflect and to think about like well, why is this hard, like? Why you know, like what's what's going on here, there, whatever you know, I just think it's an it's an invitation to dig kind of deeper of like why is this flowing? Why is this difficult, you know, and honestly, even to think about? Like, especially because we're talking about nonfiction, right, this entire time. We're talking about nonfiction. We're talking about true, true stories, true experiences. You know where. Fiction is a whole other beast. You know that.

Speaker 1:

I will not be going into. Yes, and that is okay that is okay.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, but like, especially with nonfiction, sometimes something is hard, something is not flowing easily. It's difficult because there's I mean, you're the psychologist, I don't want to say anything but like I'm, assuming there's some unprocessed, like trauma or there's something to dig into, you know, and just to be just to be aware of that right Cause I think it's so easy, when something is difficult or it's not flowing, to be like oh, I'm not meant for this, but like that's not the. That's not the case.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, oh goodness, this is so fun, this is so good, and I mean, we could talk for hours and upon hours but, so for the listener, the plan is every month we're going to get on here and we're going to process what that month has been like, and so we had a lot of background to share in this one. So we probably won't be going as long in the following episodes. But who knows? Who knows? Because when I get to the breakdown stage, we may switch roles and you may become the therapist. I'll give you the playbook.

Speaker 2:

Yes, exactly, great, great, that's beautiful. I love that. I love that so much. I don't know of anything else in the world that like like what we're doing here. I don't know of anything else that exists like this, and this is just so rewarding and so much fun, and I just know that these conversations are going to pave the way for women to not just write books but to, like, call their shot and to invest in in, honest to God, good writing coaching, which is like what we're doing. You know, and I'm just so freaking excited. Like stories matter so much, you matter so much, your book is just matters. Oh, I'm just so excited. This is so amazing. I'm so glad you pooped your pants and sent me the voice.

Speaker 1:

And I mean thank you for jumping on board with this idea. I mean you don't know how much it's meant to me and even just you, you showing up as you, as a writer, like I've been watching. I have been watching and our, our friendship and the way that we have connected made it possible for me to take that risk to say, like help.

Speaker 2:

And I'm just so glad. Oh, thank you, I'm so glad, this is awesome. Yay, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1:

Well, we'll be back in a month, hi.